FYI…adult Sunday school time… College level…. 20JUN
I love these discussions (email below) with “my professor”… Such a wealth of knowledge that he has, and the ability to draw electronically on great resources….
This is an academic interlude… kinda like hearing Paul Harvey saying, “Now you know the rest of the story”…
It’s cool that they can debate calmly, they can agree to disagree…. We need more of that in today’s society. Luther says “Partaking of the body of Christ can be of use because it involves the promise of forgiveness of sins. Since, however, every promise requires faith, and since faith is spiritual knowledge, then the bodily repast, if it is eaten in faith, must at the same time be eaten in spirit.” Meaning it’s real… The other guy says it’s a figure of speech… He uses the “I am the vine” scripture in his argument for it being a symbol.
“LUTHER: Call upon God, that you may receive understanding.
OECOLAMPADIUS: Call upon him yourself, for you need it just as much as we!”
My favorite agreement they have is:
“Indeed, to do the smallest thing at the command of the Master is spiritual. ”
And on page 11, “Respecting Helvidius, it can be proved from Scripture that “brother” can mean “cousin.” ” yeah that made me take a pause!…. based on all my cousin writing, on 17mar and more recently… Cool…
———- Forwarded message ———-
From: “Professor” Subject: Re: Another question
> We explored this question in (too much) detail during my scholasticism class this past semester!
> What it boils down to is that from the very earliest years the church believed that Christ was really present in the communion elements. We can see this belief as far back as the 1st and 2nd centuries. It wasn’t until Ulrich Zwingli in the early 1500’s that many protestant churches came to believe in this “memorial only” understanding. In fact, Zwingli and Martin Luther once held a face-to-face debate on the subject called the Marburg Colloquy. Luther believed in a version of this “real presence” doctrine, Zwingli did not.
> Here, read this- it’s the transcript of the debate. You’ll learn a lot!http://divdl.library.yale.edu/dl/FullText.aspx… Follow the links at the bottom to the next pages to see their actual debate.
> —–Original Message—–
> From: debbie
>> Ok, Professor,
> I am curious….
> Why is it that Catholics are taught that actual transformation of bread and wine become real body and blood, and (I think) in protestant churches it is a symbol (am I right on that?)…. And why wine switched to grape juice but not in Catholic churches….
> What an amazing argument verse 43 must have started!!!!
> Verse 37 is also very intriguing in that God had to draw the people to Jesus first, and then Jesus shows them the way home… it’s not technically a circular argument, especially since these folks had all their history of God from Moses etc, but I could see how it would incite arguments! Jesus says he is God, but said God needs first to draw people to Jesus, and then they are saved…like the parables it requires open ears to fully understand, it’s taxing to comprehend and requires each person to make a personal evaluation… And it begs the question of why God made the system so intricate? Well because it’s a long term plan, not short term…. God is not in a vacuum of just God and people and everything being made from God are not a separate entity…. Everything is connected (everything from dust then back to dust)…. it’s as if within God there is all this movement here on earth… It’s as if people wander around, some seeking (some not) until they find the narrow slit of Jesus to pass through, to find eternal life… Not many get thru they say, the slit is narrow…but Jesus says he is here for “those who God draws to him” so perhaps it is for everyone but only so few will make it… One would pray that others see the LIGHT too…
> I am in no rush, but won’t it be cool to find out how all this shakes out in heaven?!!
> Thanks… I am so blessed to have fallen thru the narrow slit, or at least the first refining mesh…. Which is like a retaining mesh as well, Jesus won’t let me fall back out, he’s got me now. Like naaman I had to let go to fall in…. To let go the baggage that blocked my pass…. Who knew how blessed I would feel… And humbleness should be in being of such few that make it thru… Not pride…humility of the work now laid out for us… Now the real work really begins! God’s work is to help those find the narrow pass thru jesus…. I don’t think God minds if we polish the pass and make it a little easier for others to slip thru….but they have to let go of their baggage too, we can’t tear it out of their hands.
> 22 The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone. 23 Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24 Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.
> Jesus the Bread of Life
> 25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
> 26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
> 28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
> 29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
> 30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”
> 32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
> 34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
> 35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
> 41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
> 43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
> 52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
> 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
> Many Disciples Desert Jesus
> 60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
> 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
> 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.